UNMIK-KFOR-UNHCR-OSCE-EU Press Briefing - 12 June 2000

UNMIK Special Representative of the Secretary-General Bernard Kouchner
KFOR Commander General Juan Ortuno
UNHCR DSRSG Denis McNamara
OSCE DSRSG Daan Evets
EU DSRSG Jolly Dixon

UNMIK Special Representative of the Secretary-General Bernard Kouchner

I briefed the Security Council in New York on Friday and our mandate was prolonged. So, the 1244 resolution is still our bible. We spoke in the Security Council for several hours and I told them that the international community needs time and that we are here for some years to come. It is a long road, a long involvement and concern. They know this and were not surprised by my statement but I think it was better to say so.

We need a significant number of years to achieve our work and we need a lot of patience to build a democratic society, to change the behavior of people, to set up society based on tolerance, co-existence and confidence. Looking at all the peacekeeping missions - Lebanon, Bosnia… to all the peacekeeping or peacemaking missions…it has taken years, between ten and 25 years. Cyprus has taken 25 years! That is not to say that I believe that it will take 25 years here…I don't know. Sometimes I feel very strongly that here it will be quicker, but certainly years.

I summarized [at the UNSC] what has been done here by UNMIK. We have done a lot, honestly - I am very proud. Despite the lack of security, despite the lack of respect for human rights, despite the sorrow of discovering crimes and murders, but these things are happening everywhere [In other UN missions discussed at the UNSC]. At the same time…on the same day that I addressed the Security Council and mentioned the killing of two Serbs, in the Congo, more than 200 persons were killed between the rival groups there. But believe me, and it is shameful to say so, but for the UN people, the Kosovo mission is a success. Politically, in terms of administration, in terms of human rights and protection we have achieved a lot. This has been accepted by everybody in New York.

I'd like to say a few words about what we have achieved. Remember where we were one year ago. Everywhere we faced a desert - empty streets! We were facing an absolute lack of hope. We had the return of 800,000 refugees. We were very anxious about the winter. Remember the electricity cuts…no power, no heating, temperatures were at minus 30! We were very concerned about the elderly people for example. But we crossed winter. With the huge involvement of the UNHCR we provided basic services and shelter kits…we did it! I say "we" because we are a team - a group of friends. It was the first step - the emergency period. We also succeeded in demilitarizing…we did it! Today and yesterday…I know about the parade and football game [referring to recent KPC activities] but they were in civilian uniforms and without guns.

This is the first time in the history of peacekeeping missions that this has happened [demilitarizing in a short time]. When we came here one year ago people were in the street wearing military uniforms and carrying weapons. It was not easy to demilitarize but they [KLA] were wise enough to accept the way we did it. Of course, nothing is perfect and it was not easy, of course, we were not in charge of sweeping everywhere to find guns in the Balkans area. But KFOR, our friends, our finding hidden guns every week. Now there is a Kosovo Protection Corps (KPC) involved in rebuilding Albanian and Serb houses - trained in all the aspects of this civilian security service. This has not been achieved in over thirty years in Northern Ireland. This is not to blame our British friends - I have been involved in Northern Ireland and it is a very difficult country and they did it very well. But look, it was the first time in the history of peacekeeping missions that we transformed a so-called liberation army into a civilian body. I know the imperfections, I am not proud of all the steps but we did it.

We started all this not from zero but from minus 50 - forty years of communism and ten years of apartheid or confrontation. We now have the Kosovo Transitional Council (KTC) a consultative body with all the minorities, all the political parties and all religious and civil society groups. It was unimaginable six months ago. We have the Joint Interim Administrative Council (JIAC) with the three Albanian parties of Rambouillet and the Serbs of the Serbian National Council (SNC), and even if they are now in New York they will come back and we will work together. I hope that other representative of the Serbs might come. Of course UNMIK remains in charge under 1244 and is the ultimate place where a decision will be made. We also have an administration of governance with twenty departments led by one international and one Kosovar, which includes the minorities and the Serbs. The Serbs are in charge of the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Labour and Employment and it works. Some departments, not only the financial and economic departments, are doing very well. We are building a modern democratic society.

Meanwhile, concerning the economic field, we have put in place in one year, quicker than anywhere, a macro-economic framework that will allow Kosovo to thrive in the future. You can compare this with anywhere in the world and you will see that revenues are flowing into the Kosovo budget. Not enough, but thanks to the donors and the European Union in particular who provide half of the money it works. We are now working on customs and taxation and the climate for small businesses is healthy. 70% of the private sector has already restarted.

Of course, I have to say some words on violence. We expected it and I told the world that several times. But despite of that knowledge we have been saddened because the violence has increased again in the lead-up to the renewal of our mandate. Some people, who are badly inspired, told the public that we would withdraw from Kosovo. This was not true…not at all. All the extremists who wanted us to fail were involved in terrible attacks with the aim of destabilizing Kosovo. We were ready for that and unfortunately it came but we have a particular plan to react against all this violence. In the Security Council every single speaker raised this issue and deplored it. They have made it very clear that their continuing commitment in Kosovo is dependent on the end of violence. Building a democracy, throughout the whole process, involves fighting this violence…yes, fighting against violence! You need to be a fighter to oppose violence.

So, finally, where do we go from here? It is time now, as we begin our second year here, to transfer more responsibilities of governance to the people of Kosovo. The aim and the goal of this new target is the holding of local elections in October. This will start the process of democratization and believe me, if we are lucky, this will happen. It has never been done before in only sixteen months to set up a good process of registration, delivery of identity cards and the holding of a free and open election. During this campaign I will campaign myself. I will offer a pact between the international community and the Kosovars. Of course, some of the Kosovars - the Serbs, are not for the moment engaged with the process of registration. This is a pity for me but I think and hope it will change. We need the Serbs for a good election and they have to be absolutely involved if they want to stay in Kosovo and be part of the future of Kosovo and they must vote! Some of them have already accepted to register.

So, the pact can be about two main issues. First, the status minorities, and we should stop saying this word, let's call them communities. They need freedom of movement and freedom of work here. They shouldn't be threatened walking on the streets here otherwise it will be a failure for the international community and human beings. The second point on this pact - we have to explain and shed light on what substantial autonomy means. This is the purpose of 1244. Together with the Kosovars we must define what we mean by substantial autonomy. Of course, we must think of Rambouillet and autonomy under Tito's regime etc. We have to talk about this and they must be aware about their future.  We will do it together with the communities… the Serbs and the Roma.  I am very happy that the three Albanian leaders visited the Roma communities offering them the return of the Roma and proving that we are all together in Kosovo. So, Kosovo must join the democracies of Europe.

KFOR Commander General Juan Ortuno

As the senior NATO representative here, fully committed with UNMIK in one single mission, let me make some comments on the meaning of today. One year ago, Serbian military and police forces left Kosovo and with that we saw the arrival of KFOR. Here with the United Nations we saw the end of the previous widespread violence. For many, life has returned to normal, shops and markets are full of food; the fields are alive and filled with crops and the majority free to go about their daily business. Sadly, there are still those who want to perpetrate an environment of hatred and violence. We should oppose this as this violent minority stands in the way of progress and their actions do nothing but disrupt the ongoing peace process.

I'm confident that the people of Kosovo will learn to put the past behind them and to accept that the only way forward is through tolerance, cooperation and coexistence. KFOR is determined to provide the safe and secure environment but this can only be achieved if the people of Kosovo seize the opportunity and denounce the politics of violence and hate. For the past fifty years you have been denied your political rights and have been unable to participate in a truly democratic process. Many of you have already taken the unique opportunity to play the full part in registering for the forthcoming elections. I urge those who have not registered to do so now. Remember that voting is a privilege and that by registering you will have the right to vote and influence the future of Kosovo.

When KFOR arrived just one year ago thousands of people had nowhere to live and so little hope for the future. Since then, as has been stated, nearly one million refugees have been able to return to their homes and villages with a tremendous effort of UNMIK and the support of KFOR. A year ago law and order had broken down and there were over fifty murders per week. Today, there are on average of no greater than six per week. Over 12,000 weapons have either been confiscated or handed in, and remember that the destruction of illegal weapons means that they can never again be used to kill or maim innocent men, women or children. As has been previously stated, the KLA has been transformed into the KPC, providing Kosovo with an indigenous, multi-ethnic emergency service that is also helping UNMIK and KFOR with the reconstruction of Kosovo.

KFOR currently has over 30,000 troops from 39 different countries and each day KFOR soldiers conduct between 500 and 750 patrols, guards over 550 key sites and operates over 200 vehicle checkpoints. Many are deployed guarding those people in places considered to most at risk. In addition, KFOR troops have devoted much of their time, energy and resources assisting with the relief of suffering and the reconstruction of Kosovo. KFOR engineers with the assistance of the international community have revived an antiquated power system that suffered from years of neglect and adequate investment. Now, the Kosovo Electric Company, with the involvement of the reconstruction from UNMIK is able to generate enough power to satisfy the needs of the people of Kosovo. The military engineers have also repaired 229 kilometers of railway track, six bridges and 220 kilometers of road. KFOR medical personnel have treated over 50,000 patients this year and we have assisted with the rehabilitation of a number of hospitals and clinics. We now have working in Kosovo 13 field hospitals and all of them are open to the civilian population. KFOR have cleared mines and unexploded ordnance from over 16,000 houses and nearly 1,200 schools. Unexploded munitions have claimed the lives of too many people since the war ended and KFOR has conducted mine awareness training for more than 20,000 schoolchildren and continues with UNMIK its effort to destroy these munitions.

Finally, for the future, what can you expect of our commitment. UN SCR 1244 will continue and KFOR will remain in necessary for as long as is necessary. KFOR will work together with UNMIK and the international community to maintain a secure environment and deliver freedom of movement for those who want to live in peace. We will work for the peoples of Kosovo. And we will support the establishment of a democratically elected government representing the Kosovo multi-ethnic culture and communities.  That is the main job, Dr. Kouchner and the civil administration will be engaged with.   But these goals cannot be achieved without the active participation of the people of Kosovo and the future of Kosovo is in your hands. Together we can deliver peace and prosperity for you and your children. I ask you to seize the opportunities that UNMIK and KFOR offer, because will not be here forever, it doesn't matter how long, do not throw away the chance you have to provide your with a future. Thank you.
  
SRSG: Thank you very much, General Ortuno. We are ready now to take some questions.

Questions:

Q: With all respect to the attempts of UNMIK and KFOR to stop the violence directed against the members of the Serb, Roma, Egyptian and other communities here, I would like to move on different track concerning the killings.  The anniversary report of the killed people showed that around 600 people were killed in the last year in Kosovo and most of them are Albanians. There is also a large number of people killed without knowing their identification. What does it mean?  Around 131 persons are killed, their ethnic background is still not known.  And it is a very, very big number of Albanians that are killed here…213, if not more.

SRSG:  Well, it is very difficult to answer briefly to such a question. First, this is very unfair but we have to compare the level of attacks against the communities and we have to compare the proportion of the communities inside Kosovo.  Human life is human life and we have to protect one human life. We have to fight for the life of one man, one woman. I'll give you the figures.  Some five months ago our good police commissioner told us that if you were a Serb in Kosovo you had 20 times greater chance to be killed than an Albanian.  A month and a half ago, it was not the figure…it was only 8 times more.  This is still too much.  We are improving. We are getting better. At the beginning, when we came, as Juan Ortuno told you, between 40 and 50 people were killed every week - Serbs, ethnic crimes.  This is no longer true.  Fortunately, it is four, five six.  And now, we discovered that a new peak was reached.  More people were ethnically attacked.  I suppose that there was a real organized way to destabilize Kosovo… from both sides, both extremists.  One extremist using the other.  This is not to say that because of the huge problem of the missing persons (Albanian missing persons and Serb missing persons), detainees (Albanian detainees) and a huge rate of murder, I am forgetting… I do not forget at all.  In the contrary, as I told you, our work last year was of course set up with the souvenir of what happened in the past ten years.  As UNMIK, as KFOR, as the international community, we have to fight against violence.  To offer the people not to love each other, this is very difficult, but not to kill each other.  This is our task. And step, by step to rebuild co-existence and new confidence.

This is my answer.  I know the respective numbers… and I don't want to be involved in this sort of challenge of correcting this particular number because of the involvement of ICTY, etc.  It is too early to give you a precise and definite figures.

Q: I'd like to go back to the other and into the year that we just came in.  That is, what is going to happen after the anniversary? I am interested in something that you didn't mention in your review…and General Ortuño didn't mention it either.  This is about organized crime, smuggling and stuff like that.  You don't Albanians and Serbs on this business… you just have extremists or businessmen, if I can say so.  Do you understand the real danger that comes out of this for the Kosovar people despite their ethnic origin?  What are you doing to prevent that?  I know that there are reports, internal reports that have to do with this.  You know what's happening.  But I'd like to listen to what you have to say about that.  What are the measures that you might take to prevent and stop this...  Smuggling, organized crime and the other stuff?  Thank you.

SRSG:  Yes, General Ortuño will answer… but I have two remarks.  Organized crime, smuggling and all this sort of involvement of 'Mafiosi' are a long story here.  It didn't start with the coming of the international community.  It has big roots in this area.  True, or untrue?  Thank you.  This is true.  So we have to fight… together!  It's a huge culture, coming from here to the rest of Europe. 

We are fighting, with means that I don't want to tell you about because they are more or less secrets, with very general, public and open involvement against smuggling.  The borders are very well watched…better than before.  They are not completely closed.  We are not closing all the paths in the mountains, I know.  We did our best and it's better than before…much better. 

Second, we are arresting people.  We have 400 people in jail.  This is not enough... it's a huge number, but we do not have a judiciary system strong enough.  We are working on a judiciary system.  The first good, fair trials are coming up right now.  We are getting international judges and international prosecutors, etc.  We are fighting. 

And the last point is prostitution.  I do not accept the whole picture of prostitution being the most important market of the world, and drug movements being 60% of movements around the world.  They are just stupid people!  I have been involved years and years in fighting drug trafficking.  I don't know where the prostitutes are here. But I know where they are in Paris…very well! So please, if I'm fair enough to name my capital, I also know in several other capitals.  I'm not a child and I know that there is some prostitution.  Dennis may tell you what they are doing to offer asylum and protection to the women. We are fighting!  If we were not here, it would have been a mess.

JO: Everything has been said, especially the remarks on Paris. 

You are well aware that the biggest challenge for Kosovo is law and order. It is not enough to bomb it, but also to change the culture.  To change the relationship between you and the judicial system, police, etc.

As Dr. Kouchner has said, we are doing our best and working very hard. We have increased to a very high level the integration of the efforts of the police and KFOR. We're very coordinated and work better every day.  In the end, what is needed is a change of culture.  Not only to build a judicial system but an internal culture of law and order.  The real sustainment of change in Kosovo will be very difficult.

SRSG: We are opening a secret, free open phone line to get testimonies and complaints from the people. We will get thousands and thousands of callers. When someone is killed on the street- and I remember our colleague Mr. Krumov - who was killed surrounded by a circle of hundreds of witnesses, none of whom wanted to speak. So we'll open a free line run by international, private people, known by nobody, to ensure the secrecy of the line. And we'll offer to all Kosovars to complain through this line.

Q: Are you satisfied that the political leaders, both Serb and Albanian, that you are dealing with in the run up towards municipal elections are not linked to any criminal activities?

SRSG: I would be absolutely dissatisfied if they were.  We have a lot of intelligence people involved from many countries.  I'm sure my phone line is watched by 25 to 35 nations. We have absolutely no evidence of this linkage.  None at all.  I'm satisfied with that, of course because they are my partners.  I'm more satisfied by the statements issued two days ago on the violence and to the appeal to the citizens of Kosovo to help the police and judiciary system.  All the three statements signed by Thaci, Rugova and Qosja are different, but altogether this text represents part of the future of Kosovo.  This is a very important step.  Eight months ago we could not have imagined such a text.  This is not enough. I'm not satisfied. But it part of a long process.

Q: Are you satisfied that there doesn't exist at any level of the international community any support for the UCPMB?

SRSG: Our police forces are approaching 3,600, and many are leaving….

Q: Can General Ortuno outline some of the measures he has taken over the last few weeks.

SRSG: To fight against this period of revenge, we must fight against….
We must offer to the Kosovars a political understanding of their future. For the children…

Q: CBS - You blamed the violence on the extremists of both sides. Several high ranking UN officials have also blamed you for allowing these extremists to operate with impunity. And by allowing them to operate with impunity and intervening in several cases, you squashed the reconciliation between the Albanians and the Serbs.

SRSG: You are very well informed.  Who are these particular high-rankers? (someone in audience - 'Dienstbier').  Mr. Dienstbier is completely out of my view and my mind. I wanted not to receive this person. But now, not only I will not receive him, but Vaclav Havel neither.  Vaclav Havel, the president. Have you read Vaclav Havel's statement on Mr. Dienstbier? He said Dienstbier is disqualified to talk about human rights. That's OK for me. This is not an interlocutor.

I have never interfered. Never. And certainly not from the knowledge of this guy. Because he came two days. To say the truth to the rest of the world. This is not only unfair. It is a shame. Do you believe that I am in favor of killing? Do you believe I have devoted my life for 30 years, and Mr. Dienstbier so-called, knows the truth? All these investigation of the world. All these intelligence services are based here. I never interfered.  Only once…Just to tell my people don't investigate with the police inside the buildings of the political parties. I t was my only interference in one year. Please Mr. Dienstbier.  Shut up!

Sorry to have been rude, but you attacked me.

Q: I got the feeling here that the local politicians were waiting for something else… but the simple updating of the United Nations resolution.  You said that it is still the bible here… maybe they were waiting for a New Testament.  Do you have the same feeling and do you think that this sort of disappointment will cause you any problems?

SRSG: Nobody asked for a new text… I'm sorry but it was just a rumor or misinterpretation.  Some people from Belgrade, and not the opposition or the good people we are talking with.  They saw how they launched this false news of the new text or review of 1244… it has never been true.  1244 was in place and is still in place.  At the moment it will be in place until its application or implementation.  I know that this is a political problem.  I'm in charge of offering to the people substantial autonomy with my friends here.  And if we can achieve that… believe me, the rest should be part of history.  I know that people here are in favor of independence.  The international community sent us, KFOR and UNMIK, just to respect 1244.  These are long discussions, which have started already, for the future of Kosovo.  We cannot judge the implementation of a UN resolution after only one year.  This is impossible.  Look at what happened… the Israelis withdrew from Lebanon.  We've been waiting for that for twenty years. 

Q: I have a question for Mr. Kouchner… a question that could open the whole philosophy of the UN.  You know Mr. Kouchner, as a French man, the system in France is republican, which means trying not to think about existence of community… just equality for all but one community.  I would just like to know this paradox, how can you deal, as a Republican, with the rebuilding a country paying attention to ethnic basis and cultural differences, which is a taboo in the French Republic, even if it is very important.

SRSG:  Well, you know that I'm still a Republican… and very proud to be!  However, the history of Europe is made of this contradiction.  You know that to build a Republic in France, we even killed a King.  Sometimes, in Europe, it takes time to build confidence and to have the people together, like we are now… Juan Ortuno - he is Spanish and I am French, and before it was a German General and before that a British General.  So, with the stories of our common wars, it has taken twenty centuries… more then in the Balkans.  All of us went through a war in our countries.  Now look… we are building a European Union.  It has taken 50 years… this is the answer.  At the beginning, of course, it looks like a shame.  How can you divide?  I'm sorry… I did not divide anything.  I found the country as it was.  There was a strange mistake… and sometimes unfair.  You are accusing the firemen of 'putting' the fire.  We came for peace.  You told us… what about the state of fighting and violence.  We know about that, and that is why we came… to calm it down.  I am very desperate about how the communities are not living with each other.  Not only living, but talking and listening to each other.  But we are fighting to improve the system and to improve the involvement of everybody.  This is my concern.  It has nothing to do with my "Rubublicanism". 

Q: Considering the historical experience of Indian and Pakistani migration during the decolonization, concerning a very small area… what do you think about the partition idea?

SRSG:  My idea is not to support any partition.  My idea is to be a very good servant of the international community… and they don't want any partition.  I know that sometimes partition has been part of a solution.  But you know, this integration is always followed by disintegration.  The entire world has been followed by peace, and all the divided cities were re-united.  So, this is hope and optimism, I know.  Look at the rest of the world in comparison to what happened here.  With the help of the international community in Kosovo… hope is coming.  Look at the people in the street… you can see the children going to school.  They were kicked out from the schools for the past ten years.  Now they are all, unfortunately not together… but they are all going to school.  The University is working.  All the hospitals are working.  We have to improve the situation, but it was just impossible to think about this one year ago.  This is the anniversary of hope.  This is the anniversary of the involvement of the international community deciding to help, save and protect a minority.  This is the first time in the history of our world… East Timor is the second.  In the beginning it was in Albania, Somalia… but it was not achieved with the text that we did here.  So, I think that for all the minorities and for all the ideas in the world… Kosovo is a fantastic progress, despite of the difficulties.

(Agreed to take more questions)

Q: Mr. Kouchner, what are you going to do or planning to do to prevent the media from spreading or inciting ethnic hatred here in Kosovo. 

SRSG: Good question.  For the media… Daan will answer you. 

DE: Media is a sensitive question.  First of all, let's conclude that, regarding media, it is amazing to see the variety and the pluralism that has grown in Kosovo within a year.  There are 30-40 radio stations, there are seven dailies; there are weeklies, monthlies… there are women's magazines and youth magazines.  It is amazing, if you compare it with some other places in the region.  With the freedom of the press, comes responsibility.  You were referring to some irresponsible journalism that we have seen.  We have tried to be human and tolerant.  We said "media we don't want to pound on you"… "we want to encourage you".  So why don't you get organized and have some kind of self-regulatory regime.  Organize yourselves - have an organization of journalists, have some code of honor and discipline yourselves.  So, that's what we wanted.  The association was formed, the code of conduct was adopted, but it still has not reached the state of implementation - or self-regulation.  In the absence of this, and pending this, we feel we need some instruments on a temporary basis to discourage the worst of journalism.  Mainly such articles that directly, or almost directly, lead to endangering individual lives.  We cannot allow a journal or newspaper to pass death sentences on a person… that is just going too far.  It is like saying "fire" in a crowded theatre.  That is where freedom of press does not go anymore.  We have drafted a summary clause, which should be adopted in a few days, and which says "the worst incitement of hate, we will not tolerate and absolutely blatant lies or distortion of truth we will also sanction".  There will be a number of instruments, fines, correction on the first page, calling the editor in, and in the worst of cases closure for a temporary period.  That temporary code of conduct, we hope to adopt in the near future, pending a more satisfactory long-term self-regulatory regime.

Q:  Mr. Kouchner, you said that now you can explain to the people more about potential autonomy but are you satisfied with your government and with resolution 1244, or would like some amendments so that you could make the work better?

SRSG: I just have to obey!  I'm in charge of the 1244. Everyday all of us (pillar heads) discuss for an hour… and we are not always satisfied.  We have to improvise and work.  Our common involvement was to offer to the Kosovars to work with us and to be involved.  It was the main goal since the beginning.  It has taken time to convince them.  Remember that to get only the 3 main Albanian parties of the Rambulliet to work together, it took 3 or 4 months just to have Mr. Rugova and Mr. Thaci to speak to each other.  Then we started working with the Serbs.  Now, things are getting better… but we will never be satisfied until the end.  That is to say that I want to have a multi-ethnic Kosovo where people coming from all the communities can walk and whistle and laugh in the streets in their own language and speak freely going with their family to some other family. 

Q:  What's your plan for convincing the moderate Serbs to come back to your joint Administration because I understand that you can't make progress without them, in any meaningful way?

SRSG: Well, you should ask them!  At the moment, they are in Washington.  We are still working with the people who are remaining here to improve the general situation in the enclaves and for all the communities, not only the Serbs.  I would like Dennis to say a few words, not only about the Romas, but eventually about the detainees as well.  Everything is mixed.  We have to deal with some sort of heritage from centuries ago and I suppose or hope that they will come back because we have to work together.  Not only them but all the communities and representatives of the Serbs.  If they do not want to…it will be up to them.  We will go ahead without them, but it would be a big political mistake.  This is exactly the same with the election.  We are asking the people to register and vote, but if they do not want - even a Republican cannot force the people to vote - but we will go on with the elections anyway. 

Now… Dennis please tell us about the Romas.  The event was very important.

DM: You covered it, I think.  We took the Albanian leadership last week for the first time to the Roma communities as part of a platform for a great action to encourage the return.  Next week we will take them to further Roma and Egyptian communities.  I have to say that we were very disappointed by the lack of media interest in following those visits.  It was the first of the kind ever in Kosovo and in the region and we have been working on this issue for decades.  I do hope that we will have your support and interest in the follow-up visits, which should lead to the return of considerable number of Romas in the following months. 

The second point is the question of detainees.  It is very clear to us that protection of minorities, particularly the Serbs here, and the possible return of Serbs to Kosovo is linked to many factors.  One of them being the detainee issue of Kosovars detained in Serbia.  I wanted to tell you that we have raised this issue again in Belgrade recently and that we have certain indication that detainees are being released on a regular basis.  ICRC is very much involved in that… but we made a humanitarian appeal to the Belgrade authorities - at high levels - in full coordination with Mr. Kouchner and UMIK and there is a response in terms of regular release of detainees in numbers, which are not negative.  We hope very much to pursue that… that process can in fact be a positive gesture - humanitarian gesture - which may help our work with the Serb population on the return of Serb issue.

Q: Mr. Ortuno, civilians are very angry because there is the impression that you are not controlling the borders seriously.  Could you tell us how many soldiers you have in the border and how do you control it?

JO: Currently there are five full battalions from all our forces, involved in control activities but you should understand that there will never be a force big enough to control all the borders - completely seal the border.    (Inaudible) they are working very hard, mainly to increase the efficiency through the direct support of the border guard activities from Macedonia and at the same time to link both sides of the border in an integrated effort.  Be assured that we will work very hard on that and I can also tell you that some areas have reached an agreement, on both sides, especially in the Southern Brigade.  Progress has been made. 

Q: Dr. Kouchner, from yesterday's rally it's clear that many of the Kosovar Albanians will settle for nothing less then independence.  I'm wondering how the United Nations is trying to deal with the question?  How are you trying to quell this national desire for independence?  So when the UN does pull out in 10, 20, or 30 years there will not be the same problems all over again.

SRSG:  I understand, but I'm not in charge of independence at all.  As I told you, I never spoke about it.  I know that there is a contradiction… this is not a surprise.  Secretary-General, Kofi Anan, said that the first months of the implementation of 1244 it will be a history in the Balkans a very long process.  If you consider what this particular Kosovo was in 1974 and under Tito's regime - autonomous regime - and ask the people here… it was the best times of their lives.  I know that it is not enough to talk about the past.  One has to look at the future… but in the contrary, in this particular Balkan area always mixing the future and the past and always starting a sentence thirty centuries ago and ending it in the present time, etc.  But this is true.  There is a fantastic heaviness of the past here.  You will see I understand your question, and this is a very true and important question.  People have to deal with that with patience because my feeling is… I don't think that the future of Kosovo would be or should be determined precisely only here in Kosovo.  I think that the future is linked to the evolution of the region.  That is to say that I really strongly support the pact of stability inc. now apparently with a good base of political involvement.  I believe that the future of Kosovo is certainly in between our nations… sort of a Southeast European Union.  Close to the EU but not completely in… I don't know, this is the future.  And will it be a confederation?  I don't know.  It will be something very different from what we are talking about now.  The main leaders of Kosovo already understand that.  In fact they understood it from the beginning of our involvement here.  All of them are talking about stages… a time for fight, a time to sing, a time to build democracy, a time to look into the future.  They are certainly more wise and they really changed a lot and that is why I'm 'pissed off' when the only question is about the link with Mafia.  This is not true.  Of course the Mafia is true… they exist, and they exist in several other countries as well.  So, people are really moving toward the right direction. 

Q: The first question is: you said that you are in contact with the opposition leaders in Serbia.  Can political changes in Serbia somehow put some hindrance in the status of Kosovo in the future?  The second: a year ago, as far as I can remember, you refused the creation of enclaves.  Now Serb leaders are suggesting some kind of separation from Kosovo and people are talking about switching the territories of Northern Kosovo - Mitrovica - to Southern Serbia - Preshevo Valley.  What do you think about it?

SRSG: The last issue is absolutely a dream… a nightmare.  Because between Trepca and the little valley it is difficult to exchange something… it is not the same area.  I know that some of the diplomats sit in their offices and look at the map and think that it can be exchanged… no.  People are people and we have to deal with people.  You're first question is linked to the second.  Yes… I think that change in Belgrade should be a very important step for the evolution of this region.  The European Union is the model, but they have to find the way themselves.  How can we deal with the new involvement of the nations here, without talking to the Serbs...we have to!  Serbia is part of the area… But one by one with the Serb people but unfortunately, there is a black whole and we can't talk to particular people indicted of war crimes.  The opposition is certainly part of the hope but we will see…  Yesterday Montenegro held elections.  There a lot of things to deal with and to take as a real part of the problem.  The second thing… is linked to the first.  They offered us cantonization and the international community refused because we have a dream… united people living together, not killing each other, and building their future.  So, cantonization was not the answer but you are right…it was easy and we discovered that with General Jackson and General Reinhart and now with General Ortuno.  It is easier to protect people in an enclave then to protect them one by one… that would be impossible.  We have to work together with them.  As I said, all the divided cities came back united in the end.  Nobody, not even the intelligence - ever so intelligent people - was aware of the evolution of Russia or Berlin.  It will be a surprise for us - a good surprise.